Condensed interview

The original interview was shortened as the manuscript expressed some text in which did not make sense/had incorrect grammar etc. 



What is the main struggle you have had yourself since coming out of university?

It's finding your own path within design and finding the niche in what you want to do. University for me was like when you do your driving test and you kind of learn to drive after you've passed your test. So that first 3 years is when you really kind of try to learn to do what you are doing. I suppose that continues anyway throughout the whole of your career. You start off and your first year is relying on friends and family in which you could tap at for work and then after that it was kind of like trying to work for yourself. So that was a big struggle as well. Basically just finding out what your about and getting better at what you're doing. Yeah I guess with the business stuff there was a lot more to learn as this was not apart of our course. So there was a lot of mistakes that we made. I guess that's like the main struggles, I mean there's struggles everyday, I could probably think of a lot more if I could prepare for that question. I'll probably go upstairs [to the studio] afterwards and the guys will be like 'what about this'. Shit loads of struggles everyday.

What's been your biggest struggle today so far?

Today? I think a lot of the time you are battling with people. The bigger the projects get, the more people you are kind of managing rather than what you want to do, which is design. Like selling design, which is another important thing that you have to learn, that's like a big job itself. To sell the idea to someone.

Do you ever feel that you are sometimes belittled for being a creative rather than taking a more 'academic' root?

I've not felt that particularly. Most the time people are excited about the design. When rebranding someone it's exciting just to show them what they could look like and a lot of people get on with the visuals quite easily. And get that kind of...excitement. There's a lot of positive reactions really. Also in the way in which we portray ourselves, most people wouldn't come to us that would be kind of belittling us. Because what we do is very visual.

Say if you were with someone who does not know about design, how do you feel that they interact with you as a designer?

My parents are kind of forward thinking with that kind of stuff. I think it would have probably happened before but less so now. Its different for me as well because I set up my own business, if people didn't understand design they'd kind of understand the business side of things. So i've never really felt that for myself. There's nothing wrong with someone thinking its a load of shit, a lot of the stuff we do is.(laughs) that's fine, like it wouldn't bother me particularly if someone did.

Do you find it hard to balance projects in which you would like to take on with a smaller income, compared to that of larger projects in which you need to sustain the business?

I mean we've been kind of really lucky. Well at the start we kind of worked for anyone, and loads of stuff we weren't really into at all. But the more kind of cultural and art stuff that we have done, the more we've got and now it's very rare that we don't like the projects in which we run. We don't really do that many commercial projects just for the sake of doing them. Now we're at a stage where were nearly 9 years in. So we just have enough of the cultural and art like [design] to keep us going. It's basically what we want to do and what we want to make, were in that position to do that. Were really small so that helps, because then we don't have a big engine to feed.

If you were to begin your creative career again, would you change anything? and did you expect yourself to be where you are now?

I would have studied graphic design possibly. All the stuff that we like is raw, we’re not really into pretty, quaint or cartoony. So like in some ways the fact that we haven't studied all those things means that our work is quite raw. We've got better at type and grid lines, things like that. Type plays massive part for me, it's the message really. [It’s] Way more of a focus then the end kind of prettiness or quaintness. Like when we transform one of our brands it is kind of  really messy and ripe, and that kind of stuff interests me more because it has a punch to it. My favourite type of work is the one that's loud and a bit raw, and little bit more punky and has attitude. I guess I would still do graphic design yes. They usually say it's good to know the rules to break the rules, where we're just breaking them I think [laughs].

Where do you see yourself as a creative heading in the next ten years alongside the company?

It's 9 years now and we just still about finding out what we're like. Its taken ages for us, we've been really slow, taking baby steps.There's only four of us that work up there [in the studio] so it is like a small company. Me and Mark that started it, we took around 4 years before we employed anyone else. So yeah, I guess where I see us, we're currently playing around more with movement, just as an interest. And again quite raw like, more giphy than anything else. But we quite like that type of movement. Umm so [we’ll] play a bit more with that, and then yeah trying to perfect a kind of like, in house style. Like just try and home in on what that is and keep on playing with those things.

So how come you decided to stay up North, rather than say London, the hub of graphic design?

My family's from London, but it's cheaper to stay up here. [laughs] When you're starting a business it's cheaper to do so. I really like Leeds. I like the proximity of the city centre to everything else, you can walk around, your always like 45 minutes from anywhere. London's really exciting, my brother and sister are there so I go down there quite a lot to visit family. But we had some work in Leeds at the start and then we quickly got into working, and in the end we got international work like coldplay or Kylie Minogue, or Lily Allen, so it didn't seem to matter where we were. It hasn't really felt like it's stifled us being in Leeds. It's just, its helped us more than its stifled us. I suppose Leeds and Manchester have become more of a prominent art scene over the last couple of years  It's changed loads since i've been here, like maybe since I was 19. So about 11 years ago now? It's changed loads, like you would have never thought about it being a food town, whereas now it is a massive food town. And you wouldn't think of it being as much about art as it has been, with new galleries and new exhibitions opening all the time. I think as long as a city feeds you in some way, then you can kind of stay there. And it seems to create and feed us, especially with places like Duke studios.

What is the best piece of advice you could give a creative student right now?

Advice is always difficult because it makes me sound like I would know what to do. One of the things I realised, because I fucked around a lot at uni, is how much it costs to kind of make stuff. And you get all of that for kind of like free pretty much, or like very discounted. So I would have made more things, done more physical stuff because I didn't realise use it as much as I should have done. I should have played around with letterpressing. But then yeah, i’d also like [to] try and get inspired by like other people around. [University is] really good for inspiring yourself, and making sure that you are making connections with people. You do feed of each other, like the great thing about this place [duke studios] is having that drink on a friday night and having that creative scene because you see other people and what they've been doing, and their struggles with clients.You all laugh. It's a nice community to be involved with. Also don't be scared of digital because you are going to have to use it, you're going to have to get involved with it. It seems like a lot of students want to make books all the time, but one of the things about us was we came from the other angle of making websites first so we were really into digital. Mark was a developer, so I just designed for digital at the start, I didn't really know about editorial so much. So that's something that is lacking from people coming out of University, that they seem to be scared of it. Like the way to embrace it, like obviously you have an iphone and things like that, but just downloading apps, seeing how they work, like seeing how the UI works. It's about understanding how behaviour is on phones, that will set you in an amazing position to get a job because you are already part of something that isn't going to go away. It's just going to keep on growing.

So do you think a lot of the work you've got now is digital, or is there a balance?

I think we've got a place now. It was at the start massively digital. So now we basically do a brand and we tackle all kind of angles of it. And obviously digital is a massive part of that, it's one part of a bigger kind of thing.

Starting up 9 years ago have you found it hard to keep up with technology?

We’re kind of like, I suppose, were like slight gadget kind of guys in a lot of ways, so when you are designing that is kind of imprinted into you. Like my dad is a computer teacher so there has always been computers around us as kids, so that's kind of helped. We've not had any struggles with that I suppose, like the thing with software maybe there is a few changes but it's always been adobe really. If someone said change from adobe that would be a bit of a pain in the arse [laughs] don't know whether i'd bother with that. But that would be the only thing I can think that I would probably stay away from. But any new kind of like design for Vr, Id go into any of that because it seems exciting, why not. (I suppose it's kind of like always trying to take new challenges, like software kind of taking over the designers job.) That's why I think [It’s important] being at top of the pile with the branding stuff, it's the ideas that are most important. There are moments when you need to use those such things but it's the same as graphic design becoming a tool, and designing for like UI's. It's all just trying to get people to do something, or like gain some sort of emotion or reaction from someone. And that's why I don't think it’s never interested me to kind of like close off one thing and say like i'm just into print, or i'm just into this type of style. We've done stuff before where we have painted loads of signs and that's been the visuals, and then we've done other things where it's been  all to do with secret apps.That's why I like the job because it's that varied, and I wouldn't like to suddenly not do one aspect. Even print like I designed the city talking, and I just enjoyed doing that. That's something that I really enjoyed doing, it was just like old school print, I think that's the thing, it's the difference of it all. We've designed exhibitions before, for corporate people. It was with Lord whitney and we make an indoor park, and it was exciting again. Then we were working with plants, we were putting bird sounds in, we made like a little mini experience. Its more than just one graphic design thing, it's like a bigger picture of like how you create an emotional reaction. And that's why we've always kind of said we like big type, and like punchy type because that, the words, gives a lot of emotion, sometimes more than pictures do.

Throughout your career what project has stood out to you the most, and that you have enjoyed doing?

I saw this thing on Netflix the other day about Paula from pentagram and she said it's always the latest project. And that kind of rang true to me. Because like it always feels like that project. There's some fun ones, like city talking.. A lot of the projects you do you look at afterwards and think like I hate that. Because you just start to look at it and think I could have done better. Which is good because it shows progression. But I always think it's the latest thing you are working on that you kind of feel most excited about. And then the next project comes along and you think I think I can make this more exciting. And that's hopefully the way it will keep on going. So in answer, the next project. [laughs] Leeds international festival. I've enjoyed doing. I think it's just an exciting new project to work on, another cultural project. I quite like the way that with your design that you can't tell what genders developed it, because I feel like sometimes like some people make masculine design or feminine design. Whereas I think yours is just really neutral. Especially because you use like pinks a lot Well yeah, I think that we try and make it genderless in some ways but umm every time that we use something that's really strong we try and soften it with a softer colour, so we try and like equal it out a little bit. So it hopefully gives that kind of balance, like a little bit less of a one sway. But you know what I mean, it's more just like raw like. Raw is a better word, I suppose it's hard to say really.