The interview itself took place at Duke studios and lasted approximately 45 minutes. The interview was physically recorded, with below being the manuscript for this.
What is the main struggle you have had yourself since coming out of university?
It's finding your own path within design and finding the niche in what you want to do. University for me was like when you do your driving test and you kind of learn to drive after you've passed your test, do you get what I mean? So that first 3 years is when you really kind of try to learn to do what you are doing. I suppose that continues anyway throughout the whole of your career. But yeah for the first 3. you start off and our first year was like relying on friends and family in which we could tap at for work and then after that it was kind of like trying to work for yourself. So that was a big struggle as well. Basically just finding out what your about and getting better at what you're doing. These a massive learning curve when you're setting up a business obviously. Is it more the setting out the business side you are interested in, or the design side? (a bit of both really, like your journey and how far you have come) Yeah I guess with the business stuff there was a lot more to learn as this was not apart of our course. So there was a lot of mistakes that we made. (Was the business side of things like tax demanding?) Yeah that was a bit of a learning curve, like umm I think that's why this place [duke studios] is great place because you can feed off other people. So umm yeah that was like a bit different. I guess thats like the main struggles, I mean there's struggles everyday, I could probably think of a lot more if I could prepare for that question. I'll probably go upstairs afterwards and the guys will be like 'what about this'. Shit loads of struggles everyday.
Whats been your biggest struggle today so far?
Today? I think a lot of the time you are battling with people. So like you. In my instance I really want to say like we want to be quiet particular about certain thinks that you like and its battling with clients to try and make sure that they kind of go down that path. You've got copywriters and art directing firms and everyone's go there own kind of thing. The bigger the projects get, the more people you are kind of managing rather than kind of what you want to do, which is design. Like selling design which is another kind of like important thing that you have to learn, that's like a big job itself. To sell the idea to someone. I don't think it was massively done, for me anyway at uni, that we ever had to present stuff, I think that you do it more now then when I was at uni. Umm but presenting your ideas and saying why is important.
Do you ever feel that you are sometimes belittled for being a creative rather than taking a more 'academic' root such as science?
I've not felt that particularly. Most the time people are excited about the design, when i mean like, rebranding someone, or just finding like, its exciting just to show them what they could look like and. And a lot of people get on with the visuals quite easily. And get that kind of, umm, excitement. There's a lot of a positive reaction really. Your really showing them like, this exciting time for them. So most of the time you kind of. I think theres a lot of like marketing people and other creatives part of the process, kind of like. Then sometimes say, this is not a design thing. We've always come under the part of the content is deisgn, that we value, so like making something looks good is just as important as what it says. Because thats how people digest it really, and how it gets noticed. So most people understand that now. Also in the way in which we portray ourselves, most people wouldnt come to us that would be kind of belittling us. Because what we do is very visual.
Say if you were with someone who does not know about deisgn, how do you feel that they interact with you as a designer?
My parents are kind of toward thinking with that kind of stuff. I think it would have probably happened before but less so now. Its different for me as well because I set up my own business, if people didn't understand design they'd kind of understand the business side of things. So i've never really felt that for myself. Theres nothing wrong with someone thinking its a load of shit, a lot of the stuff we do is. Haha thats fine, like it wouldn't bother me particuly if somone did.
Do you find it hard to balance projects in which you would like to take on with a smaller income, compared to that of larger projects in which you need to sustain the business?
I mean we've been kind of really lucky. Well at the start we kind of worked for anyone, and loads of stuff we weren't really into at all. But the more kind of culturally and art and stuff that we have done. The more music, obviously. The more we've got and now its very rare that we don't like the projects in which we run. We don't really do that many commercial projects just for the sake of doing them. Now were at a stage, where were nearly 9 years in now. So we just have enough of the cultural and art like work to keep us going. So its normally stuff like festivals or music like coldplay (kylie Minogue) Kylie Minogue yeah. Yeah i mean theres a lot of like a lot of fun projects I cant really think of anything. Its very rare that we will do something. Its often that it will turn out to be a nightmare when you start working with a label and or. Things like that. And then we work with these guys who have a difference on opinion, and its a bit more of a battle that you thought it would be. It's basically what do we want to do and what do we want to make, were in that position to do that. Were really small so that helps. Because then we don't have a big engine to feed.
If you were to begin your creative career again, would you change anything? and did you expect yourself to be where you are now?
I would have studied graphic design possibly. Umm I think that some part of why. All the stuff that we like is raw, its not like, it doesn't have, were not really into pretty or quaint or cartoony. So like in some ways the fact that we haven't studied all those things means that our work is quite raw. We've got better at like type and grid lines, things like that. Like that was learnt after. The message for us in that kind of, umm rawness to it is more important basically. (what did you study at umm) Advertsing (advertsing yeah?) (I suppose then its kind of more like. Id say with your work its more impactful) I've always been intrested in. Thats why type plays massive part for me, like its just the message really. Way more of a focus then the end kind of prettiness or quaintness. Like when we transform one of our brands like it is kind of like really messy and ripe. And that kind of stuff interests me more because it has a punch to it. And um I love other studios work that you can kind of look at and think thats kind of beautiful, and you can see these books that they make and other things like that. And I think there is like a part of me, sometimes we work with fashion brands that enjoy that side of it but I wouldn't want to do it all the time. My favourite type of work is the one thats like loud and a bit raw. and little bit more punky and have attitude. And umm the quaint kind of stuff. I guess I would still do graphic design yes. They usually say its good to know the rules to break the rules, where were just breaking them I think [laughs]. There are some graphic designers up there [in reference to their studio].
Where do you see yourself as a creative heading in the next ten years alongside the company?
Its 9 years now and we just still about finding out what were like. Its taken ages for us like weve been really slow, taking baby steps, theres only 4 of us that work up there [in refrence to their studio] and so it is like a small company. Me and Mark that started it, we took around 4 years before we employed anyone else. So yeah, I guess where I see us, were currently playing around more with movement, just as an intrest. And again quite raw like, more giphy than anything else. But we quite like that type of movement. Umm, so play a bit more with that, umm and then yeah trying to prefect a kind of like, I wouldnt say we have an in house style particullay but there are certain traits to our work (yeah), and that kind of continues through. Like just try and home in on what that is and keep on playing with those things.
So how come you decided to stay up North, rather than say London, the hub of graphic design?
My familys from London, but its cheaper to stay up here. [laughs] When your starting a buisness its cheaper to do so. I really like Leeds. I like the proximity of the city centre to everything else, you can walk around, your always like 45 minutes from anywhere. Londons really exciting, my brother and sister are there so I go doen there quite a lot, to visit family. But umm, it was more to do with like, we had some work in Leeds at the start, umm actually we had some work in London at the start from family friends, and then we quickly got into working, and in the end we got international work like coldplay or Kylie Mingnogue, or Lily Allen, so it didn't seem to matter where we were. It hasn't relly felt like its stifled us being in Leeds. Its just, its helped us more than its stifled us. (I suppose Leeds and Manchester have become more of a prominent art scene) It's changed loads since ive been here, like maybe since I was 19. So about 11 years ago now? Its changed loads, like you would have never thought about it being a food town now, whereas now it is a massive food town. And you wouldnt think of it being as much art as it has been, and new galleries and new exhbitions opening all the time. I think as long as a city feeds you in some way, then you can kind of stay there. And it seems to create and feed us, especially with places like Duke studios.
What is the best piece of advice you could give a creative student right now?
Umm, advice is always difficult, because umm it makes me sound like i would know what to do. One of he things I realised, because I fucked around a lot at uni, and didnt do much but one of the things that now that I wish you could do more is just use the, like the first three year when you come out you realise how much it costs to kind of make stuff. And you get all of that for kind of like free pretty much, or like very kind of discounted. So I would have made more things, done more phsyical, kind of like stuff because I didnt realise use it as much as I should have done. I should have played around with kind of like, letterpressing or like loads of different things, now I like have never done screenprint again. But then yeah, id also like try get inspired by like other people around. Theres like so many things that are happening around these types of places, like really good involvement within the creative scenes. Like really good for inspiring yourself, and making sure that you are making connections with people if you did want to stay then you've got good connections with companies. You do feed of eachother, like the great thing about this place [duke studios] is having that drink on a friday night, and having that creative scene because you see other people and what tehyve been doing and their struggles with clients, theyre doing differnt things. You all laugh. Its a nice community to be involved with. Also dont be scared of digital because you are going to have to use it, youre going to have to get involved with it. It seems like a lot of students want to make books all the time, but one of the things about us was we came from the other angle of making websites first, so we were really into digital. Mark was a developer, so I just designed for digital at the start, I didnt really know about editorial so much. So thats something that is lacking thats coming from people coming out of University, that they seem to be scared of it. Like the way to embrace it, like obviously you have an iphone and things like that, but just downloading apps, seeing how they work (yeah) like seeing how the UI works. Its about understanding how behaviour is on phones, that will set you in an amazing position to get a job because you are already part of something that isn't going to go away. It's just going to keep on growing. People that just want to work in print, your going to be trying to look for companies that are very small I suppose, or boutique. Which is a really valid way to go but you have to really commit to that.
So do you think a lot of the work you'e got now is digital, or is there a balance?
I think we've got a place now. It was at the start massively digital. So now we basically do a brand and we tackle all kind of angles of it. And obviously digital is a massive part of that, its one part of a bigger kind of thing. Which is what, rather than graphic design, what we are into is like the whole kind of copyright and tone of voice, its the messaging and the advertising kind of side to it.
Starting up 9 years ago have you found it hard to keep up with technology?
I think that maybe because of me and Maek we have already been kind of intrested a little bit in technology and the way things work. Thats why I was saying with kind of like playing with apps like things come quite instinctively for us because weve been playing with them all our life. We kind of like, I suppose, were like slight gadget kind of guys in a lot of ways so when you are designing for stuff like that imprinted into you then yeah you are going to hit the ground running a bit faster. Like my dad is a computer teacher so there has always been computers around us as kids so thats kind of helped. Weve not had any struggles with that I suppose like the thing with software maybe there is a few changes, but its always been adobe really. If someone said change from adobe that would be a bit of a pain in the arse [laughs] dont know whether id bother with that. but that would be the only thing I can think that i would probably stay away from. but any new kind of like design for Vr, Id go into any of that (yeah) because it seems exciting, why not. (I suppose its kind of like always trying to take new challenges, like software kind of taking over the designers job.) Thats why I think being at top of the pile with the branding stuff, its the ideas that are most important, like we were saying before about the messaging, how thats more important than almost the quality of the paper. There are like moments when you need to use those such things but its the same as graphic design being a tool, and designing for like UI's. It's all just trying to get people to do something, or like gain some sort of emotion or reaction from someone. And thats why i dont think its never intrested me to kind of like close off one thing and say like im just into print, or im just into this type of style (yeah). I like, weve done stuff before where we have painted loads of signs and thats been the visuals, and then weve done other things where its been like all to do with secret apps thats online and then poeple searching and things like that. Just seems like. Thats why I like the job because its that varied, and I wouldn't like to suddenly not do one aspect. Even print like one of the things, I designed the city talking, the newspaper and I just enjoyed doing that. Thats something that i really enjoyed doing, it was just like old school print, I think thats the thing, its the difference of it. Weve designed exhbitions before, for like corporate people. It was with Lord whitney and we make an indoor park, and it was exciting again. Because then we were working with plants, we were putting bird sounds into the thing, we made like a little mini experience, so as people went past and saw the graphic design. Its more than just one graphic design thing, its like a bigger picture of like how you create an emotional reaction, and how you can create someone to do something. And thats why weve always kind of said we like big type, and like punchy type because that, the words, give a lot of emotion, sometimes more than pictures do. So I guess thats the kind of angle we have always been, and we hope to continue to do so.
Throughout your career what project has stood out to you the most, and that you have enjoyed doing?
I saw this thing on netflix the other day about Paula from pentagram and she said its always the latest project. And that kind of rang true to me. Because like it always feels like that project. Theres some fun ones, like city talking. I rally enjoyed doing and I can remember looking back at that now. A lot of the projects you do you look at afterwards and think like I hate that. Because you just start to look at it and think I could have done better. Which is good because it shows progression. But I always think its the latest thing you are working on, that you kind of feel most excited about. And then the next project comes along and you think I think I can make this more exciting. And thats hopefully the way it will keep on going. So in answer, the next project. [laughs] Leeds international festival. Ive enjoyed doing. (Ive seen your posters for that one) yeah, so ive enjoyed kind of like doing things like that and really enjoying the other parts of that, that are going out now. I think its just an exciting new project to work on, another cultural project. (I quite like the way that with your design that you cant tell what genders developed it) No, thats. (So i like that. because I feel like sometimes like some people make mascline design or femminine design. Whereas I think yours is just really neuuraal. Especially because you use like pinks a lot, but tehy are vivid pinks.) Well yeah that I think that we try and make it genderless in someways but umm everytime that we use something thats really strong we try and soften it with a softer colour, so we try and like equal it out a little bit. So it hopefully gives that kind of balnce, like a little bit less of a one sway. But yeah, there is like some sort of masculine elements to it still, I thibk that the masculine and feminine thing is not really, hopefully as much as it used to be, be around. But you know what I mean, its more just like raw like. Raw is a better word, I suppose its hard to say really.
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